Delayed Sleep-Phase Syndrome (& Non-24)
What time do normal adult human beings get up in the morning? I mean spontaneously, without alarm clocks or someone yelling that it's time to get up. I'd suggest 6-9 a.m. as a normal range. Most people without sleep disorders and with healthy habits are hard-coded to wake up within that range. Scandinavians call the 'larks' who wake up at 6 "A-people" and the 'owls who wake up at 9 "B-people". Scientists refer to Morningness-Eveningness.
There are three disorders which hard-code people to wake up outside of that range. Two of these are very uncommon:
ASPS (Advanced Sleep-Phase Syndrome) has been studied. It runs in families and the faulty gene has been identified. These people have to go to bed around 7 p.m.
Non-24 affects mostly people who are totally blind. They live by a 25-27 hour clock, going to bed 1-2 hours later each day. Every few weeks, they are "normal" for a couple of days.
DSPS (Delayed Sleep-Phase Syndrome) affects one or two adults in a thousand. (In addition there is an adolescent variety which goes away. Adults over 25 with DSPS aren't going to be cured any time soon.) Sufferers can lie in bed, awake, for hours until their hard-coded sleepy time arrives, which can be 4 a.m. or 6 a.m. or later. They generally can sleep 8-9 hours uninterrupted, if allowed to.
There are some differences between "B-people" as I defined it above and people with DSPS. It would appear that the B-Society lumps these people together into one group -- which can be OK if we're all aware and agreed.
More on this later if any interest is shown.
--DSPS
http://360.yahoo.com/nma120
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more on DSPS vs. NORMAL
Interested people have no doubt read Wikipedia's article on Delayed Sleep-Phase Syndrome. It's pretty good, and it mentions or hints at what the differences are between DSPS and normal evening people.
Now there's also a new article, Chronotype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype
telling about what indeed is normal within the eveningness/morningness (or circadian type, diurnal preferance, diurnal variation) range. Comparing the two can be instructive.
Not that that makes it any easier to be a night person in a day world.
--DSPS
http://360.yahoo.com/nma120
Non-24's
So glad to see others in the world suffer the same fate of the early/regular risers!!
I have been fighting depression and extreme anxiety for 15 yrs, and have finally worked out with medical/pharma help, that "the stress" has been caused by sleep loss, many years of staying awake to "catch up" on the body clock.
Mine is a moving time scale too, and makes it hard for others to comprehend why we are up at strange times in the night and half asleep in the day.
I have been labelled troubled, manic, lazy, depressed, but really all I have needed is acceptance from those around me that I don't need to sleep 8hrs and be awake for 16hrs, that this is variable in me, dependent on the chemistry in the brain!!
Thanks for creating a space for the "strange sleepers" to discuss their "conditions" all around the world.
Greetings Dr DSPS + Non-24
We must try to laugh at those who think of us as lazy.
Consider, for example,that you are awarded the Nobel Prizes for Science and Literature in a combined ceremony and you also save the human race - perhaps by inventing a drug that will prevent stupidity - on the way to the awards.
Understandably, you awake a little after lunchtime, and what do you get? Disapproving looks and self-righteous comments from the intellectually bankrupt. Is it even worth the trouble explaining (slowly and clearly) that you were given a big prize at the Nobels, and then stayed up late contemplating a new idea?
Surely, it is much better to bang on their doors at 2:15 a.m. and invite them to participate as subjects in a new experiment, one that will change their lives. They will, of course, complain.
For some obscure reason these people don't like being woken up after 3 or 4 hours sleep in what feels like the middle of the night, though they have no hesitation in doing this to us.
re: cortisol
I have had my cortisol measured as well and it was also low in the mornings.
Clock-induced sickness
Quote: Charlie said "Sleep deprivation is a well-known torture method, yet I'm supposed to do that to myself every day, for no real reason except to appear "normal."
I can do it for short periods but start to feel physically ill - one 18-month stint in a job with regular hours saw me so run down and exhausted I collapsed, and was constantly ill with colds, bronchitis - even varicella."
Oh yeah - been there, done that. I'm lucky now because most days I can just run my own schedule. But twice a week I have to conform to the "OTHER CLOCK", very early meetings - and on those days I often wind up with severe migraines, a couple of times with total white-outs! Those days are a loss for me. If I can grab a power nap in the late afternoon, by the evening I can pull myself together enough to at least get some work done. It's terrrible.
Clock-induced sickness/B or DSPS?
Oh Z - I hear you! I had a migraine last week from lack of sleep and today I have a headache and slightly nauseous feeling. It's not quite a migraine, so I tend to call it a "sick headache", which is what my grandmother used to call her migraines. I'm looking at the possibility of a sleep clinic specializing (so they say) in insomnia & circadian rhythm disorders. I don't know if I'm a B or DSPS (to me they're virtually the same, no offence intended to anyone who thinks otherwise)and I'm not trying to turn myself into a Lark, just hoping to revert to my old B/DSPS state where I was awake until about 1 or 2am and ALERT. For the last few years, I've been tired around the clock (unless I've somehow managed 9hrs sleep) and find it hard to do anything productive, even though I'm awake until 3am or later. I can read or watch tv if I don't have a headache, but usually I just feel like a zombie. I'm an aspiring writer and people don't understand why I can't do my writing late at night but I'm just too damn tired and foggy-headed. (Could also be procrastination and other writer's-block issues, but that's another story!).
Fitting into "abnormal" sleep pattern leading to illness
Hi Z,
Just to share my experience. Have tried repeatedly to reset my bodyclock to a 9-5 routine. Forced myself to work "normal routine" for years.
Leads to sore throats, glands and flu like symptoms every time.
Anyone else?
Cortisol
Has anyone had their 24 hour cortisol levels taken.
Mine is very low in the morning and goes up as they day progresses. It hits a peak in the evening - which correspondes to when I am most awake.
How would one tell the difference between a DSPS person and a B?
How would one tell the difference between a DSPS person and a B?
Good question, flopsy! I am neither a doctor nor a scientist and some of the research papers I read, I understand maybe only 2/3 of.
First, not everyone agrees that there is a difference. Some say that there is a continuum from ASPS to morning-lark(A) to average to evening-owl(B) to DSPS. I find that attitude to be not-too-serious.
Everyone whose circadian rhythms are fairly regular has her/his own timing for:
- melatonin onset
- sleepiness, go to sleep
- midpoint of melatonin secretion
- lowest core body temperature
- spontaneous wake-up
That's the usual order of those items. But the periods of time between these landmarks vary. See my blog, page xxvii, for my interpretation of a couple of Japanese studies, for example. DSPS people have a short interval between sleep onset and melatonin midpoint and a much longer than normal interval between temperature minimum and wake-up.
Other studies show differences in "phase angle" which I really don't understand well enough yet to write about. In short, I think there is a (genetic) difference between normal eveningness and DSPS, but I don't have a short and easy explanation.
--DSPS
http://360.yahoo.com/nma120
DSPS or B - genes
DSPS - haven't read your blog yet, but will do so soon. As for genes, I thought I heard something on the radio recently referring to a particular protein being long in night-owls and short in larks. Don't quote me, I may have mis-heard, but if it's true, this would be further proof that we're not lazy! It's difficult as a layperson to understand scientific papers, so I'm searching for information that is easy to understand.
Thanks!
Thanks for the link to your blog, it's fascinating. Being non-24, I wonder whether it isn't more common than scientists/experts think?
For example, I've never reported it to a doctor, because at first I was convinced I was just a deeply flawed human being ("lazy" etc).
Then after discovering info about sleep disorders online, I just got on with it, because I have no desire to be marked down on official records as someone with A Problem.
I also fluctuated between desperately wanting to be "normal" and an aggressive desire to live life on my own terms, sleepwise - so, I'm one statistic who's never been mapped.
Is it possible that there has been a previous evolutionary advantage to having some members of the community awake and alert when others were naturally slowing down for the day, or fast asleep? Many predators are nocturnal, so maybe that's not such a stretch.
If that's the case, perhaps DSPS etc aren't actually disorders (ie, flawed biology) but are simply variations, in the same way some people have perfect pitch, while others are tone deaf.
I can understand the value of classing DSPS and other unconventional sleep patterns as a disability in order to force official recognition of the issue, and I support that and have no wish to undermine it.
But perhaps ultimately we should be classing them more in the manner we class homosexuality - as a fact of biology deserving respect and equal rights to those who were previously considered "normal" and not something it's preferable to treat and eradicate from the person's life?
I hope this post doesn't offend anyone, for any reason: I'm just trying to get my head around something that's been a huge issue for as long as I can remember, so please excuse me if my wording is clumsy.
Disability or not?
Thanks for reading my blog and praising it! I write it mostly for myself, but am delighted if others get anything out of it.
You write: "I can understand the value of classing DSPS and other unconventional sleep patterns as a disability in order to force official recognition of the issue, and I support that and have no wish to undermine it."
In fact, the diagnosis criteria include a complaint by the patient (see Wikipedia, DSPS article, for the wording). Thus, formally, if it's no problem to the patient, it's not a syndrome, disorder or disability, even if the physiology of the person matches DSPS or Non-24. Hair-splitting, perhaps.
If you like discussing these things with other "sufferers", you're welcome on the niteowl list; there's a link under External Links in Wikipedia's DSPS article.
--DSPS
http://360.yahoo.com/nma120
Me too!
I have suffered from non-24 hour patterns all my life (and I'm not blind, or suffering from any medical condition): in my case, usually 26 - 28 hours.
Usually, my days creep forward - I'll wake at 7am, then 9am the next day, maybe 12pm the day after, etc.
School was hellish, as were periods when I had conventional jobs, and it was only when I became self-employed, and later accepted this will always affect my lifestyle, that I finally stopped having the daily fight against my own biology.
I've been accused of being lazy all my life (I'm not!) and also condemned for having no discipline, for not "forcing" myself to leap out of bed at the same time every morning, which hurts even when it's meant well.
Sleep deprivation is a well-known torture method, yet I'm supposed to do that to myself every day, for no real reason except to appear "normal."
I can do it for short periods but start to feel physically ill - one 18-month stint in a job with regular hours saw me so run down and exhausted I collapsed, and was constantly ill with colds, bronchitis - even varicella.
Like you Z, I can do a long stint awake with no major problems (48 hours was my record, but getting older it's more like 30 now, with 24-hour wake periods being pretty frequent) and whatever time I wake, it takes me a few hours to become really alert.
Today I woke naturally at 2.30pm and there's still the voice of childhood/cultural conditioning, telling me that's a Bad Thing.... so I'm very glad to have found this site (via the story at BBC News online, about the B-Society in Denmark).
Sorry for the long post, but it's important to me to discuss this with people who actually "get it" - I'd love to read more about this subject, and it does my heart more good than I can express, to read that I'm not alone.
Same here!
Charlie I was rivetted and almost got teary-eyed reading your story.
It's like looking in the mirror and talking out loud telling me about myself.
I especially recognized the "Day-Creep" where my natural clock tells me to go to sleep and wake up.
Without an alarm to wake me or any other appointments or obligations it's normal for me to go to sleep (and wake up) about 2~3 hours later every day over and over again.
I also "reset" myself by force by staying awake until a "decent" time to sleep the next evening. (Like that's healthy!?)
Creepy, in a nice and welcome way, to find out you're not a freak or an incorrigeable lazy person like my parents always thought.
Re-setting
Wow, I've done that so many times myself (and doubtless will again) - eg naturally wanted to go to sleep around 1pm after being awake about 18 hours, but stayed awake to 7 or 8pm, or later...
I can deal with it now, but it used to mess me up bigtime when I didn't know jack about sleep disorders, and used to promise myself that if I could just get "back on track" then everything would be hunky dory, and I'd rise with a smile at 7am every day like "normal" people.
Every time I tried, every time I hoped - and every single frickin' time, I failed.
Today I woke at 3am UK time and there's still a little bit of me (yes, the STOOPID part LOL!) that thinks that this time, I've finally cracked it and will be early arisin' forevermore. That I'm suddenly no longer lazy, or a skiver, or BAD, and that I'll be running up and down the hills, doubtless singing like some insane nun, every dawn from now until the day I die.
Thanks for posting, it's great to know I'm not alone with this!
DSPS + Non-24
I have a PhD in Biochemistry, and fit into the categories DSPS and Non-24. I work in a lab, and when experiments are hot I have worked up to 40 h, only needing a couple of 15 min power naps during that time. On normal days it's hard to fall asleep until sometime between 0200-0300, then I can sleep for 6-8 h before getting up for the day. After waking, it still takes a couple of hours before I am ready to roll. I routinely work late in the evening - it's the time when my brain is at peak activity. Most people don't understand my physiology or schedule, and a lot of people assume I am lazy - that is, until they learn about my publication record and my grant award budgets!
So glad to have found this site.